Inconsistency of refereeing

[ogbobby]

I have been a long time fan of wrestling in this state and have always enjoyed the atmosphere as well in Huntington. One thing that I have noticed over the years is that the inconsistent call making by the referees has gotten significantly worse. I will agree that there are some great refs and we cannot blame them all the time for it is part of the wrestler’s job to not leave it in the hands of the ref. What I am saying is that in recent years the calls are becoming too much about the referees feeling entitled to interject themselves into a match. Some examples from this year’s state tournament could be in AAA the Cabell Midland wrestler getting dq’d for something that in my opinion did not deserve a flagrant. In AA/A there were two semifinal matches that I happened to see in which both wrestlers were robbed of takedowns in the exact same position. If wrestler A is on his butt/hip and wrestler B has both legs secured whether or not wrestler A has a crotch lock does not matter because the crotch lock does not stop wrestler B from getting a takedown. This happened during the Fairmont/indy 126 semifinal and also in another semifinal with a berkeley Springs kid. This picture is even in the rule book and someone can feel free to attach the link if necessary. I just want to see if there are any likeminded individuals in the wrestling community who dee this as an upcoming problem. Due to the worry of this post not getting approved I have not listed names of referees that I don’t think should be involved in the state tournaments.

[HiCoach]

It was absolutely terrible this year at the state tournament. I agree that most of it is inconsistency among referees. There have become so many “gray” areas in certain situations and the rules, that it gives referees areas to be inconsistent. On the other side, there were also a few refs that let their pride get in the way of an important match because they get mad at coaches for being on the ref all match. In my opinion that is apart of the refs job. I’m not saying that coaches and individuals should be rude, unsportsmanlike, etc., but at the biggest tournament of the year referees should expect to take heat ever match. Coaches want the best result for their kids and SOME refs should be able to deal with controversy better instead of letting their emotions and pride get the best of them. Again this is not every ref, I saw some really good work down there, but others need to try bettering their craft or swallow their pride. Rant finished.

[mattman]

Chris you are always very consistent. Especially when one of the wrestlers have an I on their chest. Take these facts as you wish

[hollywood]

I have been a long time fan of wrestling in this state and have always enjoyed the atmosphere as well in Huntington. One thing that I have noticed over the years is that the inconsistent call making by the referees has gotten significantly worse. I will agree that there are some great refs and we cannot blame them all the time for it is part of the wrestler’s job to not leave it in the hands of the ref. What I am saying is that in recent years the calls are becoming too much about the referees feeling entitled to interject themselves into a match. Some examples from this year’s state tournament could be in AAA the Cabell Midland wrestler getting dq’d for something that in my opinion did not deserve a flagrant. In AA/A there were two semifinal matches that I happened to see in which both wrestlers were robbed of takedowns in the exact same position. If wrestler A is on his butt/hip and wrestler B has both legs secured whether or not wrestler A has a crotch lock does not matter because the crotch lock does not stop wrestler B from getting a takedown. This happened during the Fairmont/indy 126 semifinal and also in another semifinal with a berkeley Springs kid. This picture is even in the rule book and someone can feel free to attach the link if necessary. I just want to see if there are any likeminded individuals in the wrestling community who dee this as an upcoming problem. Due to the worry of this post not getting approved I have not listed names of referees that I don’t think should be involved in the state tournaments.

Another call I witnessed this weekend that in my opinion was completely blown was the Indy/Frankfort match at 145. Indy was on top in the UTB and went through into a waterfall and eventually came out on top, referee gave Frankfort 2 for the reversal. Very poor call in my opinion.

[AdolphHighCrotch]

Lets here the verdict on this clip.........excuse the poor quality i really need to upgrade my Nokia 7650 phone.

https://youtu.be/TPh2gDh6PuM

[LandmineFitness]

Upon further review, I'm going to say that it clearly looks like the ref had a hair in his eye when he made this call.

[TBNRmma]

I noticed the same thing i had a west led of mine going for 5th/6th and I caught it on video a ref giving back points when my wrestlers back was not exposed a ref not giving my wrestler the takedown points after he gave the other wrestler 1 point for escape then him not giving my wrestler the reversal all in ONE match

[Matofficial]

A lot of those calls could be corrected by using video review. The NFHS rule book prohibits that happening. That’s why most officials refuse to look at videos after the fact. However the NFHS is not the final word on whether this takes place that solely rests on the WVSSAC who will pass that on the the coaches association, who will pass that on the board of principals etc. There are also different interpretations of the rules from the exact same book depending on who is interpreting it. Again the WVSSAC could resolve a lot of issues if they really were interested in the doing so. Being less pompous and showing interest might be a start.

[MotorBoatMyGoat]

Have to agree with the above. Also, curious how we can have two refs miss a pretty blatant call and from the looks of the video even looks like the “main man” over all the refs was watching on as well behind the table. Definitely needs to have something looked at or changed. No one is perfect, even refs, and if there is a chance to make a call right why wouldn’t folks want to do that?

[Pappy]

Just got a message that my last post was not approved for illegal or pirated software which doesn’t make sense

I’ll take out the insults to parkersburg south and just ask if any referees working this weekend would care to explain why it was unconduct mishap on the WP St. Albans finals match celebration and what warrants a more or less severe penalty

[saltydog326]

I saw a 3rd period redo.... thankfully the result was the same both times. (first time I have ever seen a period totally wrestled over)
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I saw a flagrant misconduct called in which the official said the wrestler punched his opponent in the face with a closed fist,,,, in actuality he slapped him on the shoulder with an open hand. Perhaps that wouldn't have changed the flagrant call but I am not convinced it was intentional in the first place.
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I wish there was some way to make the stalling calls consistent,,,, being a judgement call makes that very difficult though,

[ogbobby]

I also remember the match with ward of Winfield and I believe it was Hart of independence(correct me if I am wrong) that became a big deal because of a magical escape being gifted to the Winfield wrestler that caused the match going into overtime in which alex hart eventually lost.

[mattman]

I suggest a physical conditioning test for all referees. I watched several refs who couldnt get to a knee or even a viewable position to count nearfall swipes. Not being rude but its hard to see criteria from the standing position. Im sure everyone has seen the video of the ref scooting on one shoulder like a sea creature but my guy was trying lol. Refs have to stay in position and that is my opinion.

[guard0544]

I suggest a physical conditioning test for all referees. I watched several refs who couldnt get to a knee or even a viewable position to count nearfall swipes. Not being rude but its hard to see criteria from the standing position. Im sure everyone has seen the video of the ref scooting on one shoulder like a sea creature but my guy was trying lol. Refs have to stay in position and that is my opinion.

While I can appreciate the intention beyond that, we shouldn't pretend there is an unlimited supply of officials out there. There isn't an army of Spartan-like refs out there hitting the gym everyday, who also have sufficient years of experience, just waiting for their moment at the state tournament. Most of the more agile officials are younger and less experienced. While, they may be able to scurry around the mat more easily, their anticipation of where to position themselves likely is not as good, and they would more frequently be out of position to make a call than the more experienced officials. I also suspect the issue this thread is aimed at, inconsistency, would become a bigger issue if there were an influx of less experienced refs at the state tournament. I was frustrated by several calls at the state tournament. There will always be calls like that. But the solution isn't to bring in less experienced officials and toss them into the state tournament where the intensity of each match is elevated. I like the idea of video review in limited circumstances. With the technology we have available today, it would seem like an easy step to take.

[dunbar76]

The NCAA already has limited review, why can't we? Hope we are not afraid of anything.

[Matofficial]

How about making an effort to train the new young officials in a more consistent manner. However I do agree just throwing them in there because they are young and can move may not improve the inconsistency because of position question. The WVSSAC could resolve or at least make an effort if they really cared.
1. Give Callen some help by allowing him to do group official clinics and then the three of them watch all officials in tournaments and evaluate them. Why did you call that, that way etc. Make this mandatory instead of the beyond ridiculous tests they require.
2) Do away with the ridiculous two 100 question multiple tests that takes more time than a good practice clinic
3) listen to coaches when they follow the rules by approaching the referee in an appropriate manner
4) understand how much a coach actually teaches an official how to officiate. I don’t have the time to really explain that one but any official who has also coached should be able to explain that. I give Bill Archer credit for that statement. He is 100% correct when he says it.

[mattman]

I suggest a physical conditioning test for all referees. I watched several refs who couldnt get to a knee or even a viewable position to count nearfall swipes. Not being rude but its hard to see criteria from the standing position. Im sure everyone has seen the video of the ref scooting on one shoulder like a sea creature but my guy was trying lol. Refs have to stay in position and that is my opinion.

While I can appreciate the intention beyond that, we shouldn't pretend there is an unlimited supply of officials out there. There isn't an army of Spartan-like refs out there hitting the gym everyday, who also have sufficient years of experience, just waiting for their moment at the state tournament. Most of the more agile officials are younger and less experienced. While, they may be able to scurry around the mat more easily, their anticipation of where to position themselves likely is not as good, and they would more frequently be out of position to make a call than the more experienced officials. I also suspect the issue this thread is aimed at, inconsistency, would become a bigger issue if there were an influx of less experienced refs at the state tournament. I was frustrated by several calls at the state tournament. There will always be calls like that. But the solution isn't to bring in less experienced officials and toss them into the state tournament where the intensity of each match is elevated. I like the idea of video review in limited circumstances. With the technology we have available today, it would seem like an easy step to take.

some of the best refs out there are the young and "inexperienced" refs. Most of them were state champions or placed at the state tournament. Some of these guys we had have now wore a singlet to the weigh ins and got stopped at the door. Keep it real man. They were looking for the R or the L to decide which side the kneepad fit. I dont want a spartan race my friend. 10 pushups 20 squats and 3 burpees is adequate at this point. Jesus

[wv16refgk]

I agree with Dave on these points of emphasis that he referenced!!! Knowledge of the rules is important but more importantly being able to get into position is probably more important!! let me elaborate... In the Kanawha Southern board which I ran for years we had classes and training every Sunday from November 1 til March 1 with the exception of Christmas Sunday and Super Bowl Sunday!! We worked hard at being the best we could be not just for appearances but for consistency, the ability to be in good position, anticipating what was coming and most importantly to be the best we could be for the wrestlers!!!! New techniques were introduced to all that came to the meetings and how to call them, what to look for and where to be to have position for that first nearfall count!!! All of the guys who didn't come to the meeting (which were not many) didn't receive matches to officiate!!! We required and actually wanted to be the best we could be and took pride in being in shape and also knowledgeable of the intent of the rules. Not one time in 44 years did I ever tell a coach to sit down and shut up or didn't take time to listen to what he had to say at the table when approached in an orderly fashion!!! Respect gained respect and sometimes when you listen to what is being said by a coach you learn !!! Maybe not for the call that was just made but for future calls involving the same situation!!! I took young officials everywhere along with some experienced ones to give them that time on the mat without sacrificing quality officiating. I placed them in the matches in the finals and critiqued them at the meetings. Today if you look and I do observe it seems that different boards call situations differently and the reasons is three fold I believe?? One most boards have meetings with no substance, the idea that its a judgement call applies to each and every situation instead of getting together and discussing it with other boards, and third the interest to become an official has diminished to the point that we lose a lot of guys to the peewee coaching ranks, or to the stands because they don't want the hassle of becoming an official opposed to being the guy screaming at some young guy who's really trying because of a call made in a split seconds time that went against their wrestle!! I hope every one out there realizes that without officials there will be no sports and also understand that this is just one guys opinion!!!! GK

[KDunbar]

I don't like to be negative about officiating (except in my own head to myself ), but on a more generalized level I would like to suggest that some thought be given by all officials on 2 topics.
My first pet peeve is the topic of stalling. I agree with the overall thought that the official doesn't want to interject himself too much into the match in place of the wrestlers and thus the reluctance on calling stalling too quickly. However, my thought is that stalling is always the same thing, regardless of the situation or time of the match. It has to be entirely incorrect for stalling to become a call when wrestler A is now ahead by a few points and time is winding down and they are wrestling with the same aggressiveness and intensity that Wrestler B has had the entire match up until now when they are finally desperate to win. In other words, stalling should not be dependent upon the officials concept of the time and score of the match. Another crazy scenario that is allowed to play out is the following, in some form or another. It is stalling for the top wrestler to ride the hips, not attempt to better their position/control, not return the bottom wrestler to the mat from a standing position in a timely fashion. However, if the bottom wrestler stands and goes back down to the mat with the top wrestler now holding onto/ lying on a leg while the bottom wrestler tries to secure a reverse, the top wrestler is allowed to lay there forever without an attempt to better their position/ control. It is not really a stalemate, but the top wrestler doing nothing but holding on. It is basically stalling. Similarly, the top wrestler standing behind the bottom wrestler suddenly goes from potential stalling if they merely grab one leg and lift it into the air and walk around the mat with it.
Secondly, is the call of a pin. This is obviously the most critical call in all of wrestling, as it immediately ends a match or if not called correctly allows a match that should be over to have the opposite of the "correct" outcome. My point is that the call is supposed to be made after TWO SECONDS and it is repeatedly made after less than ONE SECOND. An obvious example is seen over and over again where the potential pin is being looked for for a very long time. No movement is occurring and then there is a slight shift where both shoulders touch. The official who has been anxiously watching for this to happen slaps the mat. Problem is it they slap the mat immediately, just milliseconds after the very slight movement occurred and nowhere close to the TWO SECONDS that is supposed to occur. Match over and results final.
On a lighter note regarding the shortage of wrestling officials, despite the popularity of female wrestling, no one has made mention that no women appear to be stepping forward to help fill the need.

[dunbar76]

Adopt to NCAA video review rules. Do not reinvent the wheel. That'll help most problems, not all.

[Panther_coach]

I want to echo what Mr. Keeney posted. Only once in my almost 30 years of coaching was I told to “sit down and shut up.” This was out of state and it was by a ref who had obviously stopped off at a local tavern on his way to the match. He called a takedown that was not only out of the circle but off the mat, the surrounding padding and 100 percent on the wood floor. His excuse was a “continuation rule” that he thought “he saw on TV” - I guess he was watching the NBA. In WV, I always approached the referee with “Mr. Referee, I am a confused - could you go over how that exchange was scored.” This encouraged the referee to rerun the sequence in his mind and if their was a mistake it was almost always corrected. Most of my matches were in Mr. Keeney’s board and the hard work they put in showed. I was just a lowly middle school coach but was always treated with respect. I always tried to reciprocate. Just .02 from an old coach.

[dunbar76]

Questions, details can be worked out. No system will be perfect. A video review will fix many of the problems.

[Matofficial]

USA wrestling uses video review with one camera that generally but not always solve the issue. The expense is minimal. Flow wrestling uses cameras. Most big well run tournaments use them. Super 32, NHSCA etc even though they are used for home view. These problems occur every year at the state tournament but yet no one after about a months time cares enough to do anything about it, well other than complain. I guess the bottom line is the officials if they really cared could do something about it. If officials are so hard to get they could refuse to officiate until improvements were made. No positive changes that have improved things for officials have been made in over twenty years! At least ones that I can think of. Think about that one for a while.

[ogbobby]

I suggest a physical conditioning test for all referees. I watched several refs who couldnt get to a knee or even a viewable position to count nearfall swipes. Not being rude but its hard to see criteria from the standing position. Im sure everyone has seen the video of the ref scooting on one shoulder like a sea creature but my guy was trying lol. Refs have to stay in position and that is my opinion.

While I can appreciate the intention beyond that, we shouldn't pretend there is an unlimited supply of officials out there. There isn't an army of Spartan-like refs out there hitting the gym everyday, who also have sufficient years of experience, just waiting for their moment at the state tournament. Most of the more agile officials are younger and less experienced. While, they may be able to scurry around the mat more easily, their anticipation of where to position themselves likely is not as good, and they would more frequently be out of position to make a call than the more experienced officials. I also suspect the issue this thread is aimed at, inconsistency, would become a bigger issue if there were an influx of less experienced refs at the state tournament. I was frustrated by several calls at the state tournament. There will always be calls like that. But the solution isn't to bring in less experienced officials and toss them into the state tournament where the intensity of each match is elevated. I like the idea of video review in limited circumstances. With the technology we have available today, it would seem like an easy step to take.

With all due respect guard, a lot of these younger less experienced referees are guys that have wrestled the best in the state and probably understand how to call certain scenarios better than these seasoned vets. Two guys who should be calling these big time matches in the state tournament IMO were both sitting in the stands this year and they’ve both previously wrestled at Greenbrier West. Take this as you wish..

[guard0544]

I suggest a physical conditioning test for all referees. I watched several refs who couldnt get to a knee or even a viewable position to count nearfall swipes. Not being rude but its hard to see criteria from the standing position. Im sure everyone has seen the video of the ref scooting on one shoulder like a sea creature but my guy was trying lol. Refs have to stay in position and that is my opinion.

While I can appreciate the intention beyond that, we shouldn't pretend there is an unlimited supply of officials out there. There isn't an army of Spartan-like refs out there hitting the gym everyday, who also have sufficient years of experience, just waiting for their moment at the state tournament. Most of the more agile officials are younger and less experienced. While, they may be able to scurry around the mat more easily, their anticipation of where to position themselves likely is not as good, and they would more frequently be out of position to make a call than the more experienced officials. I also suspect the issue this thread is aimed at, inconsistency, would become a bigger issue if there were an influx of less experienced refs at the state tournament. I was frustrated by several calls at the state tournament. There will always be calls like that. But the solution isn't to bring in less experienced officials and toss them into the state tournament where the intensity of each match is elevated. I like the idea of video review in limited circumstances. With the technology we have available today, it would seem like an easy step to take.

With all due respect guard, a lot of these younger less experienced referees are guys that have wrestled the best in the state and probably understand how to call certain scenarios better than these seasoned vets. Two guys who should be calling these big time matches in the state tournament IMO were both sitting in the stands this year and they’ve both previously wrestled at Greenbrier West. Take this as you wish..

You're probably right. Just as any of those great NFL players could likely put on a striped shirt and automatically be an excellent NFL referee simply because they were great players. Yes, I'm sure you are correct.

[Justdeserts]

While I can appreciate the intention beyond that, we shouldn't pretend there is an unlimited supply of officials out there. There isn't an army of Spartan-like refs out there hitting the gym everyday, who also have sufficient years of experience, just waiting for their moment at the state tournament. Most of the more agile officials are younger and less experienced. While, they may be able to scurry around the mat more easily, their anticipation of where to position themselves likely is not as good, and they would more frequently be out of position to make a call than the more experienced officials. I also suspect the issue this thread is aimed at, inconsistency, would become a bigger issue if there were an influx of less experienced refs at the state tournament. I was frustrated by several calls at the state tournament. There will always be calls like that. But the solution isn't to bring in less experienced officials and toss them into the state tournament where the intensity of each match is elevated. I like the idea of video review in limited circumstances. With the technology we have available today, it would seem like an easy step to take.

With all due respect guard, a lot of these younger less experienced referees are guys that have wrestled the best in the state and probably understand how to call certain scenarios better than these seasoned vets. Two guys who should be calling these big time matches in the state tournament IMO were both sitting in the stands this year and they’ve both previously wrestled at Greenbrier West. Take this as you wish..

You're probably right. Just as any of those great NFL players could likely put on a striped shirt and automatically be an excellent NFL referee simply because they were great players. Yes, I'm sure you are correct.

Well, NFL referees are known to make mistakes as well, but that is a particularly bad comparison, bordering on a straw man.
Football players are used to seeing the game from their given position, such as, offensive guard, and not experienced at all in things unrelated to their position, i.e pass interference, in the case of an offensive guard.
Wrestling only has one position, wrestler, and that is what the discussion is about, wrestling.
That said, referees care and do a great deal for the sport, and it is not an easy job. I'm not attacking referees, just your attempt to re-frame the debate.

[Gator]

I think it’s difficult at the state tournament for the wrestlers to adjust to different styles of reffing. All are different. The good ones are consistent. There are few really good ones and we are losing them at a fast pace.

As far as the 220 semi match, that was a shame. Couple of shots to the chest and an attempted head slap in retaliation. It’s usually the the latter that gets called. But, neither were clearly worth a disqualification, IMO. A warning to both, a handshake and lets get after it would have been appropriate in the heat of battle.

IMO, wrong ref, wrong match. Ref needs to remain calm in that situation and calm the wrestlers. Not a ref hater here, I have too many friends doing it. Tough job!