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St. Albans was preseason #2 and South was #1.

Out of 14 matches, EIGHT ended by way of first round pin. When was the last time the two top teams met and there were 8 first round pins?

Furthermore, 4 more matches ended in second round pin.

There were only two decisions.

12 / 14 = 85.71% pins.

Only 2 decisions??? WOW!!

Interesting observation. In my mind there was nothing worse than getting put on my back and pinned. I didn't want to have to face Coach Oldham for one. Lol. My 11th grade year I was 210 pounds wrestling unlimited. It still didn't matter. The thought of being put on my back still turns my stomach. It is a mindset.

Interesting observation… Are each teams individual strengths in different weight classes? I assume 182 match was most competitive?

Sometimes, even a good wrestler can get stuck but it’s not common.

Absolutely! have seen the best of the best get caught and pinned. Kyle Snyder comes to mind. However, the rule of thumb should be " don't get pinned...ever." Don't even get put on your back! Realistically, it is going to happen, but mindset certainly has a big part in it. Conversely, Coach Oldham was also not pleased with near fall points. He called near falls missed pins. Lol. Just a different era for sure.

I think unfortunately this is a trend across high school wrestling. Our match statistics showed at one point that we won like 70+% of matches by pins, but conversely lost nearly 60% by pin. There are a number of reasons why I believe. In any event I agree, when I wrestled if people got pinned the team faced the coaches displeasure at the following practices.

Maybe people just were not very good pinners back in the day so it happened less often. Sort of like my 9 year old daughters basketball team doesn’t score a lot of points but I don’t think that’s due to the opponent playing tremendous defense.

South83 wrote:Interesting observation. In my mind there was nothing worse than getting put on my back and pinned. I didn't want to have to face Coach Oldham for one. Lol. My 11th grade year I was 210 pounds wrestling unlimited. It still didn't matter. The thought of being put on my back still turns my stomach. It is a mindset.

South83 you are 100% correct. Nothing made Coach Oldham more angry. He told us do whatever it took to get off your back. 5 on 2 comes to mind

guard0544 wrote:Maybe people just were not very good pinners back in the day so it happened less often. Sort of like my 9 year old daughters basketball team doesn’t score a lot of points but I don’t think that’s due to the opponent playing tremendous defense.

My observation would be that one major factor was that there were a lot more "experienced" wrestlers "back in the day" [and my day goes quite a ways back] on all teams and thus a lot more depth for all teams at each weight class. At South at that time every wrestler from 126 pounds and up was on the football team and most were starters. I haven't noticed an increased proficiency at abilities to pin over the years. Just maybe a lot less use of the tried and true half nelson.

KDunbar wrote:

guard0544 wrote:Maybe people just were not very good pinners back in the day so it happened less often. Sort of like my 9 year old daughters basketball team doesn’t score a lot of points but I don’t think that’s due to the opponent playing tremendous defense.

My observation would be that one major factor was that there were a lot more "experienced" wrestlers "back in the day" [and my day goes quite a ways back] on all teams and thus a lot more depth for all teams at each weight class. At South at that time every wrestler from 126 pounds and up was on the football team and most were starters. I haven't noticed an increased proficiency at abilities to pin over the years. Just maybe a lot less use of the tried and true half nelson.

Yeah, I was mainly joking. Like you said it’s more so due to most teams, even some of the top ones, have issues filling the lineup with experienced wrestlers.

Bearhugger wrote:St. Albans was preseason #2 and South was #1.

Out of 14 matches, EIGHT ended by way of first round pin. When was the last time the two top teams met and there were 8 first round pins?

Furthermore, 4 more matches ended in second round pin.

There were only two decisions.

12 / 14 = 85.71% pins.

Only 2 decisions??? WOW!!

I think most of the pins in this dual match in particular had a lot to do with matchups, that is having a pretty proficient and experienced wrestler against the other teams younger and/or less experienced wrestler, as follows:

113: 4th in State vs new varsity wrestler
120: 2nd in State vs State qualifier, but it did get into the 2nd period
126: 2 state placers with one at same weight and one moved up 3 weight classes and 20 pounds; McAfee showed a lot more upper body strength and Roberts will have to work on that between now and March.
132: State Champ vs new varsity wrestler
138: 4th in State vs less experienced wrestler
145: multiple year State qualifier vs new varsity
152: 2 very experienced wrestlers and both state qualifiers which resulted in hard fought decision
160: 2nd in State vs less experienced
170: State champ vs less experienced
182: State champ vs State runner-up with a hard fought decision even closer than the final score might indicate
195: Morris from South is new for the varsity but would have likely made some noise as a freshman last year if not out all year with an injury
220: 5th in State vs freshman wrestling up 25 pounds
285: 3rd in State vs new varsity wrestler
106: And as we have already discussed on another thread, a very experienced State qualifier/girls State champ vs a younger and new varsity wrestler forced with a situation where he had to go for a pin when just winning by a decision would have a significant accomplishment

For me the only pin above that was a surprise happened at 126, but McAfee is that good and Roberts will have to come up with a plan to overcome him at their next meeting.

TrueSouthFanInTampa wrote:

South83 wrote:Interesting observation. In my mind there was nothing worse than getting put on my back and pinned. I didn't want to have to face Coach Oldham for one. Lol. My 11th grade year I was 210 pounds wrestling unlimited. It still didn't matter. The thought of being put on my back still turns my stomach. It is a mindset.

South83 you are 100% correct. Nothing made Coach Oldham more angry. He told us do whatever it took to get off your back. 5 on 2 comes to mind

Oh man. The 5 on 2. That same year I was wrestling this guy from St. Albans. He must have been about 6'4 about 260 or 270. Only way I could break him down was the 5 on 2. Sure did make him angry though. As long as I made Coach happy right.

I think there are a lot of different factors for the abundance of pins. I am sure they are all correct. For us it was "break my arm, okay"..."put me on my back, never." Have some resolve.

Great stuff...thanks for the memories True South Fan in Tampa.

guard0544 wrote:

KDunbar wrote:

guard0544 wrote:Maybe people just were not very good pinners back in the day so it happened less often. Sort of like my 9 year old daughters basketball team doesn’t score a lot of points but I don’t think that’s due to the opponent playing tremendous defense.

My observation would be that one major factor was that there were a lot more "experienced" wrestlers "back in the day" [and my day goes quite a ways back] on all teams and thus a lot more depth for all teams at each weight class. At South at that time every wrestler from 126 pounds and up was on the football team and most were starters. I haven't noticed an increased proficiency at abilities to pin over the years. Just maybe a lot less use of the tried and true half nelson.

Yeah, I was mainly joking. Like you said it’s more so due to most teams, even some of the top ones, have issues filling the lineup with experienced wrestlers.

I took it from your smile at the end that you were saying it somewhat lightheartedly. Just got me to thinking about how things and times have changed. Not sure if all the kids are really less tough or driven. Maybe just a lot less experienced compared to me and others who spent more time fighting hard to stay of their backs .

I have coached a wrestler along with others over a 10 year period of time and he has never been pinned. His mindset won’t allow it but some may call him lucky. Who cares, results and facts are what they are.

Campion wrote:I have coached a wrestler along with others over a 10 year period of time and he has never been pinned. His mindset won’t allow it but some may call him lucky. Who cares, results and facts are what they are.

I presume that wrestler and the others have wrestled a significant number of matches outside of WV. I recall a guy by the name of David Taylor who was and is not too bad a wrestler, originally from Graham High School, later Penn State, and more recently of International fame. During the NCAA championships he made a slight mistake on a stand up attempt and got the knee just a little too close to the head and delay just long enough for his opponent (who was a disgruntled transfer from Penn State to Arizona State I think) to hit a cradle and that was it. I don't think it was a mind set thing or anything to do with heart. Maybe just unlucky.

KDunbar wrote:

Campion wrote:I have coached a wrestler along with others over a 10 year period of time and he has never been pinned. His mindset won’t allow it but some may call him lucky. Who cares, results and facts are what they are.

I presume that wrestler and the others have wrestled a significant number of matches outside of WV. I recall a guy by the name of David Taylor who was and is not too bad a wrestler, originally from Graham High School, later Penn State, and more recently of International fame. During the NCAA championships he made a slight mistake on a stand up attempt and got the knee just a little too close to the head and delay just long enough for his opponent (who was a disgruntled transfer from Penn State to Arizona State I think) to hit a cradle and that was it. I don't think it was a mind set thing or anything to do with heart. Maybe just unlucky.

Have you heard David Taylor explain it? He never called it unlucky. But I get your point… it happens.

The wrestler I was referring to wrestled only within the U.S. (nothing international) and dislocated shoulders to avoid the pin until one time in Missouri, he got caught perfectly that even he couldn’t get out of. Over 500 matches and suffered only one pin. Mindset and heart played a big part in every match he had.

Campion wrote:

KDunbar wrote:

Campion wrote:I have coached a wrestler along with others over a 10 year period of time and he has never been pinned. His mindset won’t allow it but some may call him lucky. Who cares, results and facts are what they are.

I presume that wrestler and the others have wrestled a significant number of matches outside of WV. I recall a guy by the name of David Taylor who was and is not too bad a wrestler, originally from Graham High School, later Penn State, and more recently of International fame. During the NCAA championships he made a slight mistake on a stand up attempt and got the knee just a little too close to the head and delay just long enough for his opponent (who was a disgruntled transfer from Penn State to Arizona State I think) to hit a cradle and that was it. I don't think it was a mind set thing or anything to do with heart. Maybe just unlucky.

Have you heard David Taylor explain it? He never called it unlucky. But I get your point… it happens.

The wrestler I was referring to wrestled only within the U.S. (nothing international) and dislocated shoulders to avoid the pin until one time in Missouri, he got caught perfectly that even he couldn’t get out of. Over 500 matches and suffered only one pin. Mindset and heart played a big part in every match he had.

Never heard what Taylor had to say. It was one of the few times I actually caught college wrestling on TV and happened to see that. Did see Taylor every year up at the Ironman before that. Your guy sounds pretty interesting. Are you sure you're not talking about Harry Houdini ? I'm sure to excel at that level for that long there was a lot of heart and the right mind set needed. Thanks for sharing that story.