Thoughts on holdback wrestlers...

[P.H.D.]

I'm not trying to incite a heated discussion but after a conversation with a friend whom I coached with before, he was telling me how his son lost to another young man who, subsequently, was held back this year. The holdback wrestler is less experienced but much more mature naturally, plus the intended advantage really played a role. I understand the ultimate goal but to revel in the present results is sad in my opinion. I searched this forum before I posted this and a Flo Ranking thread came up discussing Josh Humphreys. I am pretty sure he is not a holdback and is young for his grade. That young man is the epitome of sportsmanship and needs not seize any advantage beyond hardwork and training. It mentioned Gavin Teasdale was a 17 yr old freshman??? For a society that cries bully what do you call that? I am irritated by the holdback concept when I read about wrestlers I know that are heldback and gloat of their accomplishments at competitions that they should not be competing in. Again I'm not trying to incite a heated discussion but I'd like to hear a valid point on holding a kid with good grades back in school to excel in sports.

[guard0544]

There are age limits for high school sports. If they are young enough to be held back a year and still be eligible...why worry about it? One could just as easily argue they were at a disadvantage before being held back in that most were almost a year older than them.

[P.H.D.]

You are right about the disadvantage. I graduated at 17, wasn't 18 till college. But You didn't get held back then unless you failed and your parents were at the school doing all they could to prevent it to avoid the embarrassment . I guess times have changed. I totally disagree with it outside of illness, injury or poor grades but I'm open to others perspective to maybe lighten my opinion.

[Bearhugger]

I'm not trying to incite a heated discussion but after a conversation with a friend whom I coached with before, he was telling me how his son lost to another young man who, subsequently, was held back this year. The holdback wrestler is less experienced but much more mature naturally, plus the intended advantage really played a role. I understand the ultimate goal but to revel in the present results is sad in my opinion. I searched this forum before I posted this and a Flo Ranking thread came up discussing Josh Humphreys. I am pretty sure he is not a holdback and is young for his grade. That young man is the epitome of sportsmanship and needs not seize any advantage beyond hardwork and training. It mentioned Gavin Teasdale was a 17 yr old freshman??? For a society that cries bully what do you call that? I am irritated by the holdback concept when I read about wrestlers I know that are heldback and gloat of their accomplishments at competitions that they should not be competing in. Again I'm not trying to incite a heated discussion but I'd like to hear a valid point on holding a kid with good grades back in school to excel in sports.

Generally speaking, I would not get caught up in the event that my son (or daughter) got beat by a wrestler who was held back. I would look at many other aspects of the sport. What does my child do to prepare for the sport? How much weight do they cut? How often do they lift weights? These are the real reasons why kids win and lose.

Now let me back up my words further.

Jacob Hart is going for his 4th state title this season. This means that as a freshman, he had to go through 15 other kids in the state tournament. Many of which were older than him. As a sophomore, he had to do it again. He might have been given the gift of beating on a freshman, who knows.

Justin Allman. Same situation as Jacob. Going for state title number 4. He whipped many seniors in the state tournament when he was a freshman.

Noah Adams would be going for his 4th title, but due to a disqualification (slam), he had to settle for third place as a sophomore. Of course he responded with a National title less than a month later. He did win the state title as a freshman.

I am sure we can follow this season and there will be many freshmen and sophomores beating seniors.

Whereas this is posted on the high school forum, I am taking upon myself that the specific mentioned above is a high school wrestler. I would evaluate his strength, or lack of. For example, if he is a 106 pounder, how many times can he bench press 106? How many times can he squat 106? Ten reps on the bench and 20 reps on the squat is a good place to be. If he is no where close to this, then that is a big problem to get off the table asap.

High school wrestling throws all 9th graders onto the mat with the 12th graders. Now we have girls on the mat and they are whipping some of the boys.

As for the bully, back in my day, you ran until you got tired of running. Then you fought.

[mscoach20]

Teasdale was a 16 year old freshman and is a 2018 recruiting class member. He'll be 19 when he wrestles his senior year, which is not that big of a deal. You're saying if he was a senior and a three time state champ then his accomplishments would be more impressive as opposed to a junior and a two timer/undefeated? Hate to tell ya, but one year wouldn't take a top 3 recruit in the nation and make him back on par with the rest of the country. Kid is amazing regardless of his very normal one extra year. Not unusual to see 19 year old kids in high school. Do you know WHEN he was held back? Maybe he was like most of the 19 year old high school kids and held back in kindergarten. A bit of a presumptuous topic...but I'll allow it for now.





Also...he was ten when he started wrestling. Not bad for 8 years.

[Bearhugger]

Parkersburg South has a young lady wrestling 106. I "hear" she weighs approximately 95lbs. Nobody held her back. Based on what I am reading in the scores, she isn't holding back either. She is annihilating some wrestlers and I bet these boys all weigh 106 too.

[P.H.D.]

I've always been adamant on the topic but realistically in high school it doesn't matter a lot if you work hard like you said. I have always let this bother me for whatever reason and have argued with many friends who've attempted to seize this advantage.When looking at it on the grander scale, typically the kids in which I refer(not Teasdale, just average kids in general), only dominate a small number of kids for a short period of time. I didn't want this post to be a big deal but it is a topic I always find myself taking offense to. I appreciate all feedback. Also I'm not spotlighting Gavin as I think he is a stud. I was referring to the post I looked up to be sure I wasn't beating a dead horse. Overall,I wish I never used those great wrestlers in my initial post. I was hoping to just make a general point.

[Bearhugger]

Last weekend at the Superior Photo Tournament, we had a B team 9th grader win the 106 pound weight class. He beat a return state tournament qualifier that is a senior.

[P.H.D.]

Last weekend at the Superior Photo Tournament, we had a B team 9th grader win the 106 pound weight class. He beat a return state tournament qualifier that is a senior.

I was there, I witnessed it. Your guy kicked some senior butt. Great job!!! Your 9th grader isn't a holdback is he? That might explain it! Lol jk

[P.H.D.]

Parkersburg South has a young lady wrestling 106. I "hear" she weighs approximately 95lbs. Nobody held her back. Based on what I am reading in the scores, she isn't holding back either. She is annihilating some wrestlers and I bet these boys all weigh 106 too.

I think that is awesome!!! Indian Creek in Ohio has a tough 106 female.

[mattman]

Can't turn 19 before August 1 of your senior year. Hall of famer coach Waller told me personally that a many of PA wrestlers or maybe the ones that take wrestling very seriously are held back. Up there, they encourage it and highly recommend holding your son/daughter back. Coach Waller didn't hold his son back, he started him a year later. I look at the bodies on the wrestlers now compared to the wrestlers in the mid 90s and I'm telling you these kids now look more mature. Maybe it's DNA or maybe hard work but to me the kids now look like men at 16-17 years old.

[P.H.D.]

Can't turn 19 before August 1 of your senior year. Hall of famer coach Waller told me personally that a many of PA wrestlers or maybe the ones that take wrestling very seriously are held back. Up there, they encourage it and highly recommend holding your son/daughter back. Coach Waller didn't hold his son back, he started him a year later. I look at the bodies on the wrestlers now compared to the wrestlers in the mid 90s and I'm telling you these kids now look more mature. Maybe it's DNA or maybe hard work but to me the kids now look like men at 16-17 years old.

I agree! I love Coach Waller as well, particularly when his voice box is spent and he is still trying to scream!! Lol you know what I mean! But Like I said, I don't agree with holdbacks but it yields positive results for some. I just don't understand how you can be held back if your grades are passing and you haven't missed too much school for sickness or injury.

[Bearhugger]

Can't turn 19 before August 1 of your senior year. Hall of famer coach Waller told me personally that a many of PA wrestlers or maybe the ones that take wrestling very seriously are held back. Up there, they encourage it and highly recommend holding your son/daughter back. Coach Waller didn't hold his son back, he started him a year later. I look at the bodies on the wrestlers now compared to the wrestlers in the mid 90s and I'm telling you these kids now look more mature. Maybe it's DNA or maybe hard work but to me the kids now look like men at 16-17 years old.

LOL. You must be referring to kids you see at these big time national tournaments looking more mature and fit. Because when I walk through a regular local tournament in WV, too many of the kids look like the "before" advertisement for exercise equipment.

[coach_williams]

I am confused as to how a kid who is so "academically challenged" that he was held back until he was 17 in the 9th grade is capable of getting the grade point average to be able to participate in sports to begin with.

[Gator]

Age aside, it also depends on how dedicated a kid is to the sport and their work ethic. Josh Humphreys is a great example of that. I had the pleasure of meeting a young Josh in Canton his Freshman year and he just defeated an upperclassmen, 9-8, after trailing him the entire match. You could see he wanted it more and his work ethic prevailed in the end. If you've never talked to this young man, you should! He's always smiling and has a gleaming personality. He recently worked out with his teammates in South's practice room in a scheduled workout and watching him go rep after rep, he has quite a motor. Just a good young man!

[P.H.D.]

Age aside, it also depends on how dedicated a kid is to the sport and their work ethic. Josh Humphreys is a great example of that. I had the pleasure of meeting a young Josh in Canton his Freshman year and he just defeated an upperclassmen, 9-8, after trailing him the entire match. You could see he wanted it more and his work ethic prevailed in the end. If anyone has never talked to this young man, you should! He's always smiling and has a gleaming personality. He recently worked out with his teammates in South's practice room in a scheduled workout and watching him go rep after rep, he has quite a motor. Just a good young man!

We have know Josh and Greg for a long time now. Back when Mahindra was 2 kids, Josh and Caleb. I used to watch Josh win every tournament we attended for years. At one particular tournament, as fate would have it, Josh and my son were set to wrestle. Josh was obviously the better wrestler and could pin my son whenever he wanted with whatever he wanted. Josh went out there and in an act of pure respect, he didn't try to break any quick pin record. He wrestled with my son and in the second period he finished the match via tech fall. It wasn't that he couldn't pin him, it was that he didn't want to embarrass my boy so he made it look competitive. I've always thought very highly of him and his dad but in that match I realized exactly what a great kid he was. This story has drifted off topic, sorry. It's a great story,

[aaacoach17]

PHD, Are you joking or are you serious?? You find it more sporting to play with an inferior kid and tech fall them in the second period, and I'm not sure how you make a tech fall look competitive, rather than just get the pin and get off the mat?
Maybe I'm missing something.

[Frank]

The reading is about to get good!

[P.H.D.]

[quote="aaacoach17"]PHD, Are you joking or are you serious?? You find it more sporting to play with an inferior kid and tech fall them in the second period, and I'm not sure how you make a tech fall look competitive, rather than just get the pin and get off the mat?
Maybe I'm missing something.[/quote

I merely described what happened. I thought it was nice of Josh to not just slam and pin my son in 10 seconds like he could have. You know exactly what I was saying, I don't see why you would try to make this negative or insulting?

[mattman]

PHD, Are you joking or are you serious?? You find it more sporting to play with an inferior kid and tech fall them in the second period, and I'm not sure how you make a tech fall look competitive, rather than just get the pin and get off the mat?
Maybe I'm missing something.[/quote

I merely described what happened. I thought it was nice of Josh to not just slam and pin my son in 10 seconds like he could have. You know exactly what I was saying, I don't see why you would try to make this negative or insulting?

not being out of line or trying to insult anyone but I understand what coach was saying. A tec fall is in the opinion of most the worst way to lose. A tec fall means you had no shot of winning the match. I have seen several wrestlers who were better than their opponents get pinned but in that case you may call it getting "stuck". You never see a better wrestler get tec-d. I don't think coach was being disrespectful. I know what he was saying

[Bearhugger]

PHD, Are you joking or are you serious?? You find it more sporting to play with an inferior kid and tech fall them in the second period, and I'm not sure how you make a tech fall look competitive, rather than just get the pin and get off the mat?
Maybe I'm missing something.[/quote

I merely described what happened. I thought it was nice of Josh to not just slam and pin my son in 10 seconds like he could have. You know exactly what I was saying, I don't see why you would try to make this negative or insulting?

not being out of line or trying to insult anyone but I understand what coach was saying. A tec fall is in the opinion of most the worst way to lose. A tec fall means you had no shot of winning the match. I have seen several wrestlers who were better than their opponents get pinned but in that case you may call it getting "stuck". You never see a better wrestler get tec-d. I don't think coach was being disrespectful. I know what he was saying

Mattman my future friend, I agree with you. However, my philosophy is "If you win by tech fall, then you were too weak to pin the man or too dumb to maximize your team points". It is one or the other. Many teams finish lower than other team by a single point. Team records are not broken unless the pinning mentality is there.

[Frank]

To back up bear thought, in the words of Mean Gene the Pinning Machine, a pin is worth six points everything else is worth less.

[Rage_Bear]

not being out of line or trying to insult anyone but I understand what coach was saying. A tec fall is in the opinion of most the worst way to lose. A tec fall means you had no shot of winning the match. I have seen several wrestlers who were better than their opponents get pinned but in that case you may call it getting "stuck". You never see a better wrestler get tec-d. I don't think coach was being disrespectful. I know what he was saying

Mattman my future friend, I agree with you. However, my philosophy is "If you win by tech fall, then you were too weak to pin the man or too dumb to maximize your team points". It is one or the other. Many teams finish lower than other team by a single point. Team records are not broken unless the pinning mentality is there.

And to top that off, the tournament/meet moves forward faster. Pins are way more crowd-raising also.