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The JV saga continues.

Let me set the stage and introduce a wrestler at Independence High School named Jacob Hart. He is a three time state champion and going for his fourth state title this February. Last season, Jacob was a FloNats All American.

Jacob is currently ranked #1 at AA/A 195.

Behind Jacob on the JV is a wrestler named Trey Gunnoe.

Yesterday at the Braxton County tournament, Trey Gunnoe placed third. He defeated Caldwell of Hoover for third place.

Caldwell is currently ranked 7th in the AA/A polls for 195.

The top 10 at 195 for AA/A by region are as follows:

Region 1: Four wrestlers

Region 2: Three wrestlers

Region 3: Two wrestlers (Hart & Caldwell)

Region 4: One LONE wrestler

If the JV was allowed to enter the regional tournament, I am convinced today, January 15th, that Trey Gunnoe would qualify for the state tournament. He is behind the NUMBER ONE wrestler in the state. He beat the only other ranked wrestler in his region on January 14th. Region 4 only has one ranked wrestler. I wonder who the other four qualifiers from region four will be?

Based on the circumstances above, if you want the best to be in the state tournament, then the JV needs to be allowed to enter the region.

In conclusion, the answer is NOT that Trey Gunnoe needs to work harder to beat out one of the best the entire state of West Virginia has to offer.

Bear,
I understand your point of view here and I respect your statement and closing remark. Just curious if you have called anyone yet at the WVSSAC? I think you have the attention of the folks here on the forum. Unfortunately we are not the rules/governing body for the state of WV Wrestling.

Preach this to the folks at the WVSSAC.

Finally

Sally wrote:Bear,
I understand your point of view here and I respect your statement and closing remark. Just curious if you have called anyone yet at the WVSSAC? I think you have the attention of the folks here on the forum. Unfortunately we are not the rules/governing body for the state of WV Wrestling.

Preach this to the folks at the WVSSAC.

It will take numerous phone calls from numerous people to get anybody's attention to bring any change.

I first would expect some coaches to care enough about the situation to band together and make the calls. Until then, I will keep bringing up great examples as to why change is needed.

I just looked at the middle school seeds for the WSAZ. I understand that the WSAZ is considered the unofficial state tournament for middle school. I also noticed many kids entered for the same school for the same weight class.

Whereas high school has fewer wrestlers, allowing the JV into the regionals is very doable.

RWWS wrote:Finally

Finally? Has the change been approved?????

If he is that good why doesn't he wrestle up or go down if possible. If he good enough to qualify at 195 then he should also be good enough to qualify at 182 or 220.

Sacrifice is a great concept.

Not naming names but I know a former freshman that could have been a finalist in one weight class but was behind a senior. He wrestled up and placed top 4. He didn't want to wrestle JV so he went up paid his dues and now he is the number 1 guy in the weight class he chose. When things are given and not earned they are not appreciated.

mike.carman wrote:If he is that good why doesn't he wrestle up or go down if possible. If he good enough to qualify at 195 then he should also be good enough to qualify at 182 or 220.

Sacrifice is a great concept.

Not naming names but I know a former freshman that could have been a finalist in one weight class but was behind a senior. He wrestled up and placed top 4. He didn't want to wrestle JV so he went up paid his dues and now he is the number 1 guy in the weight class he chose. When things are given and not earned they are not appreciated.

Yeah... he should have no trouble making varsity at 220. Hehehe

mike.carman wrote:If he is that good why doesn't he wrestle up or go down if possible. If he good enough to qualify at 195 then he should also be good enough to qualify at 182 or 220.

Sacrifice is a great concept.

Not naming names but I know a former freshman that could have been a finalist in one weight class but was behind a senior. He wrestled up and placed top 4. He didn't want to wrestle JV so he went up paid his dues and now he is the number 1 guy in the weight class he chose. When things are given and not earned they are not appreciated.

Yes, he could go up to 220 and wrestle off Noah Adams. Noah is only the most accomplished wrestler in the entire state that is still on a high school mat.

If kids are so tough that they use the words "sacrifice", "earned, not given" and so on, then I would think they would want to go through the best competition in the regional championship and earn their qualification to the state tournament. At that time, I would think Wrestler A would want to earn his spot on the podium. When there is a JV wrestler out there that earned a victory over Wrestler A, then it is Wrestler A who is getting the gift. The gift being that an opponent that defeated him is out of the picture due to bureaucracy, not on the mat competition.

Last year at MS WSAZ. At a certain weight class. A first team wrestler had to wrestle his B teamer in the finals.

Having JV wrestlers at the state and regional tournaments ruins the team scoring concept. One has to accept that before this is done. It is for that reason that I am against such a change.

So what happens when the varsity and jv wrestler from the same team meet in the state and the jv wrestler lets the other one pin him so the team can get more points??? You can also bet if a jv wrestler hurts a varsity wrestler from another team it will be said they did it on purpose. Even if the jv wrestler can't score points for the varsity team if they win a match the prevented the other wrestler from scoring points for their team.

oroyos wrote:Last year at MS WSAZ. At a certain weight class. A first team wrestler had to wrestle his B teamer in the finals.

This is why the JV should be allowed to compete in THE REGIONAL TOURNAMENTS. If we want the best at the STATE TOURNAMENT, then we need to let ALL COMPETE IN THE REGIONAL TOURNAMENT. WRESTLE, QUALIFY FOR STATES AND THEN WRESTLE AGAIN THE FOLLOWING WEEKEND.

AA/A 106 will NOT have the best 16 wrestlers in the state tournament this season.

grapple158 wrote:Having JV wrestlers at the state and regional tournaments ruins the team scoring concept. One has to accept that before this is done. It is for that reason that I am against such a change.

All regular season tournaments that include JV wrestlers have separate team scoring. I do not understand how it can be calculated separately all season long and then become mission impossible during the regional and state tournaments. I really do not understand the problem.

In addition, no JV kid is going to make it to the finals and then take a dive against his team mate to help the team score. I do not buy that one bit.

Any coach that would do such a thing should be dealt with.

captaincoalman wrote:So what happens when the varsity and jv wrestler from the same team meet in the state and the jv wrestler lets the other one pin him so the team can get more points??? You can also bet if a jv wrestler hurts a varsity wrestler from another team it will be said they did it on purpose. Even if the jv wrestler can't score points for the varsity team if they win a match the prevented the other wrestler from scoring points for their team.

We work through all of these same scenarios all season long, every weekend.

If the JV wrestler wins, that is because he is better on that given day. His losing opponent lost! He doesn't earn any team points. When the JV wrestler wins, it is a clear message to all of us that he(or she) belongs.

If any wrestler thinks he is the best, 2nd best, third best, 4th best, 5th best or sixth best.................then he needs to beat all of the kids in the state that beat him that season. The free ride here is when a JV kid beat you, but you do not have to worry about him because his varsity counterpart keeps him on the bench.

I love this discussion. Bearhugger is 100%correct on this one.

How about you can enter a jv and a varsity wrestler in the regional but you can only take the top wrestler to the state. I think you are getting away from the state tournament being a team championship and making it more of an individual.

Seems like somebody didn't make the starting line up when they were in high school.

captaincoalman wrote:How about you can enter a jv and a varsity wrestler in the regional but you can only take the top wrestler to the state. I think you are getting away from the state tournament being a team championship and making it more of an individual.

Looking at the last individual poll for AA/A, the following schools have wrestlers ranked #1:

Grafton = 1
Point Pleasant = 2
Oak Glen = 2
East Fairmont = 1
Petersburg = 1
Independence = 3
Madonna = 1
North Marion = 1
Braxton = 1
Hoover = 1

These individuals have a great shot at winning an individual title.

Grafton, Point, Oak Glen, Petersburg, Madonna, North Marion, Braxton and Hoover do NOT have a shot at winning the team title.

captaincoalman wrote:How about you can enter a jv and a varsity wrestler in the regional but you can only take the top wrestler to the state. I think you are getting away from the state tournament being a team championship and making it more of an individual.

So you have two wrestlers from Charleston High School make it to the finals of their region. The varsity kid wins. You throw out the runner up (JV kid) and move up the 3rd, 4th and 5th place winners to go to the state?

If you want to change something about the state tournament then how about wrestling for a true second since they refuse to seed the tournament.

The bottom line is it is a varsity tournament. If you can't make the line up then move up or move down or move to another town.

It is an interesting conversation but no one has mentioned the fact that some of these JVs are as good as they are because they wrestle and drill and practice with these great varsity guys every day. If you put some of these guys in another room they might not be as good.

I'm from the early 80's. State Title is a dream,,, but INDIVIDUAL STATE CHAMPION . IS THE GOAL... Not everyone will achieve this.. some have been lucky at multi titles, very few have won all four. Assemble some retired coaches to figure out the regions. Until then, leave as is. Many good ideas above, this is mine

captaincoalman wrote:The bottom line is it is a varsity tournament. If you can't make the line up then move up or move down or move to another town.

It is a wrestling tournament. We should want the best in it wrestling, regardless of other circumstances.

aacoach52 wrote:It is an interesting conversation but no one has mentioned the fact that some of these JVs are as good as they are because they wrestle and drill and practice with these great varsity guys every day. If you put some of these guys in another room they might not be as good.

Probably so. Because some of these JV wrestlers are beating other Varsity wrestlers in other rooms.

If you follow the tournament scores close you will see some Jv wrestlers winning tournaments over varsity competition .

Zipp wrote:If you follow the tournament scores close you will see some Jv wrestlers winning tournaments over varsity competition .

That is what has started all of this. It appears too many people do NOT want the best wrestlers in the state to compete for a spot on the podium.

These good JV wrestlers are making a mockery of the system. Coming off the bench and beating varsity wrestlers who are ranked in the top ten. I choose not to ignore it.

Bearhugger wrote:

Zipp wrote:If you follow the tournament scores close you will see some Jv wrestlers winning tournaments over varsity competition .

That is what has started all of this. It appears too many people do NOT want the best wrestlers in the state to compete for a spot on the podium.

These good JV wrestlers are making a mockery of the system. Coming off the bench and beating varsity wrestlers who are ranked in the top ten. I choose not to ignore it.

You're so correct Bearhugger. You mentioned earlier about A/AA 106 NOT having the best 16 at the state tournament. Are you referring to the 106 at EF?

Bearhugger, Has the rule of one wrestler per team, per weight at the state tournament always been this way? If so, I'm pretty sure we're all fighting a losing battle. Also, do any states allow two wrestlers per weight class in the state tournament?

I'm not really for or against any of these points of view. And I know that the argument that this problem has always existed for all of us doesn't necessarily make it right. But maybe that's one thing that wrestling teaches all of us. That there are a lot of things we are going to have to face in life that won't seem "fair ". But just because of that the rules are not going to be changed to make things better just for us. Just a thought.