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There are 29 schools. So the states should be a 32 man bracket and place top 8. Everyone goes. You still have regionals and you seed the top 8 wrestlers or more. Two championship rounds and one consi round Thursday evening, Friday is the same, wrestle till the only ones left are placers.

A lot of good wrestlers are going to be staying home while kids are getting bye's at the state tournament... it's a shame.

Bigger crowd and make more money.... just my thought on the issue.

Here is a better solution. Forget A/AA/AAA have 1 state champion. That would make 1 regional tournament for 24 teams and would make it a 2 day tournament.

mike.carman wrote:Here is a better solution. Forget A/AA/AAA have 1 state champion. That would make 1 regional tournament for 24 teams and would make it a 2 day tournament.

That sounds great but it would never get approved because of all of the lost revenue. Motels, Restaraunts & the WVSSAC would all lose $ ,,,,

why cant it still be separated into a Big School and Small School title?

Big School: Take AAA and top so many AA schools (use enrollment).

Small School: Take bottom half of AA and Single A (again using enrollment).

Basically the same set up we always had.

mscoach4 wrote:

mike.carman wrote:Here is a better solution. Forget A/AA/AAA have 1 state champion. That would make 1 regional tournament for 24 teams and would make it a 2 day tournament.

That sounds great but it would never get approved because of all of the lost revenue. Motels, Restaraunts & the WVSSAC would all lose $ ,,,,

Okay, put all the divisions together and go to 8 regions, 12 teams per region, and 32 man brackets at the state tournament. Now no revenue is lost and you have a bigger, more competitive 3 day state tournament.

for the life of me...I cant figure out why anyone would want a 1 bracket state tournament.

what is wrong with allowing small school/small town teams having a little bit of athletic success in this state?

mscoach64 wrote:for the life of me...I cant figure out why anyone would want a 1 bracket state tournament.

what is wrong with allowing small school/small town teams having a little bit of athletic success in this state?

There is nothing wrong with small schools/towns having success, but not everyone gets to place. If you're not good enough to place, well then I suggest you work a little harder in the off season...

A one division state tourney would not be good for WV. We struggle with the turnout already. Have to keep them separated to keep kids hopeful that they can place. a lot of them are mentally weak and will just quit.

I have never witnessed a lack of work ethic or a desire to be great more than the kids I've watched in the past 5 years... you get a handful of kids every year that work hard and actually care, but most are just going through the motions.

aaacoach92 wrote:

mscoach64 wrote:for the life of me...I cant figure out why anyone would want a 1 bracket state tournament.

what is wrong with allowing small school/small town teams having a little bit of athletic success in this state?

There is nothing wrong with small schools/towns having success, but not everyone gets to place. If you're not good enough to place, well then I suggest you work a little harder in the off season...

A one division state tourney would not be good for WV. We struggle with the turnout already. Have to keep them separated to keep kids hopeful that they can place. a lot of them are mentally weak and will just quit.

I have never witnessed a lack of work ethic or a desire to be great more than the kids I've watched in the past 5 years... you get a handful of kids every year that work hard and actually care, but most are just going through the motions.

so your response to small schools/towns having success is working harder? Calhoun has worked pretty hard over the years I'd imagine. But, you think they can ever work hard enough to be able to win very many titles over Parkersburg, Parkersburg South, Huntington, etc?

mscoach4 wrote:

mike.carman wrote:Here is a better solution. Forget A/AA/AAA have 1 state champion. That would make 1 regional tournament for 24 teams and would make it a 2 day tournament.

That sounds great but it would never get approved because of all of the lost revenue. Motels, Restaraunts & the WVSSAC would all lose $ ,,,,

Have an all class state tournament and each class can have a team champion and runner up like the OVAC does it. Add a sectional before regionals so the WVSSAC can get their money.

Why is it that everytime someone has a "solution" for the AAA it involves lumping small AA/A schools in with big AAA schools? Why is it so hard for people to grasp the concept that the schools are divided to give the smaller schools a chance to compete? The division is not about individual wrestlers, it is about team competition.

So for all of you who want to handicap AA/A for the benefit of AAA, here is my solution. We dump all teams into one pool like you want, however, team scoring is modified. Any school with 1000 or more students starts team scoring at 0. Every team with less than 1000 students gets 15 bonus team points for every 100 students less than 1000. So a school with 570 students would begin team scoring at 60 points.

This would allow teams like Fayetteville, Buffalo and Richwood, who struggle to have more than 6 or 8 on their team to be able to compete for a team state championship with schools like South and Huntington who send more wrestlers to states than these small schools even have on their team.

Lots of states do it. The OVAEC does it. You crown a AAA champ, AA champ, and A champ team.
Indy would probably win an all class state tournament anyways.
It kills me when people who are scared of stiff competition say stuff LIKE, "but the poor kids from little schools won't be able to compete." Lol
Yeah, Adams wouldn't stand a chance in an all class tournament. Not.
You want to know what an all class state tournament would do? Create stiffer competition that would draw more college scouts, get kids scholarships, and give the tournament more prestige.
Revenue? One 32 man bracket would draw just as much revenue as two 16 man brackets. 16×2=32
It's 32 kids bringing their supporters to the show, regardless.

greencrush wrote:Lots of states do it. The OVAEC does it. You crown a AAA champ, AA champ, and A champ team.
Indy would probably win an all class state tournament anyways.
It kills me when people who are scared of stiff competition say stuff LIKE, "but the poor kids from little schools won't be able to compete." Lol
Yeah, Adams wouldn't stand a chance in an all class tournament. Not.
You want to know what an all class state tournament would do? Create stiffer competition that would draw more college scouts, get kids scholarships, and give the tournament more prestige.
Revenue? One 32 man bracket would draw just as much revenue as two 16 man brackets. 16×2=32
It's 32 kids bringing their supporters to the show, regardless.

so, you are going to base your general statement and point to Noah Adams as an example of smaller schools winning against bigger schools? Yeah, the Adams example is real good. That's like saying Randy Moss is an example that small AAA schools could compete with the larger AAA schools.

I mean heck...lets just lump basketball into 1 big bracket or football. Just 1 title for all sports.

If you don't think small schools can compete with large schools in wrestling you need to go watch the OVAC's. You will earn two things.
1. No one runs a better tournament and truly show cases the kids like that tournament.
2. Champions come from just as many small schools as large ones.

Then as has been stated you brake the teams championships out by class by points scored. They have been doing it way for a long time and it works.
As my coach taught me, no matter what " the cream will rise to the top." Be thankful our sport showcase that.

mscoach64 wrote:

greencrush wrote:Lots of states do it. The OVAEC does it. You crown a AAA champ, AA champ, and A champ team.
Indy would probably win an all class state tournament anyways.
It kills me when people who are scared of stiff competition say stuff LIKE, "but the poor kids from little schools won't be able to compete." Lol
Yeah, Adams wouldn't stand a chance in an all class tournament. Not.
You want to know what an all class state tournament would do? Create stiffer competition that would draw more college scouts, get kids scholarships, and give the tournament more prestige.
Revenue? One 32 man bracket would draw just as much revenue as two 16 man brackets. 16×2=32
It's 32 kids bringing their supporters to the show, regardless.

so, you are going to base your general statement and point to Noah Adams as an example of smaller schools winning against bigger schools? Yeah, the Adams example is real good. That's like saying Randy Moss is an example that small AAA schools could compete with the larger AAA schools.

I mean heck...lets just lump basketball into 1 big bracket or football. Just 1 title for all sports.

No, I'm going to base my general statement on the fact the tournament all over the country do it. CA state tournament does it. CA has a heck of a lot more kids wrestling at the college level than WV does, and much bigger schools. I wrote a long statement on the benefits of an all class tournament, and your best rebuttal is to nitpick at one example I provided, of a AA wrestler who could dominate an all class tournament?
Y'all are sitting here babbling about how AA is so much tougher than AAA, and then when someone suggests an all class tournament, you want to say that it wouldn't be fair to the AA kids. That make no sense.

greencrush wrote:

mscoach64 wrote:

greencrush wrote:Lots of states do it. The OVAEC does it. You crown a AAA champ, AA champ, and A champ team.
Indy would probably win an all class state tournament anyways.
It kills me when people who are scared of stiff competition say stuff LIKE, "but the poor kids from little schools won't be able to compete." Lol
Yeah, Adams wouldn't stand a chance in an all class tournament. Not.
You want to know what an all class state tournament would do? Create stiffer competition that would draw more college scouts, get kids scholarships, and give the tournament more prestige.
Revenue? One 32 man bracket would draw just as much revenue as two 16 man brackets. 16×2=32
It's 32 kids bringing their supporters to the show, regardless.

so, you are going to base your general statement and point to Noah Adams as an example of smaller schools winning against bigger schools? Yeah, the Adams example is real good. That's like saying Randy Moss is an example that small AAA schools could compete with the larger AAA schools.

I mean heck...lets just lump basketball into 1 big bracket or football. Just 1 title for all sports.

No, I'm going to base my general statement on the fact the tournament all over the country do it. CA state tournament does it. CA has a heck of a lot more kids wrestling at the college level than WV does, and much bigger schools. I wrote a long statement on the benefits of an all class tournament, and your best rebuttal is to nitpick at one example I provided, of a AA wrestler who could dominate an all class tournament?
Y'all are sitting here babbling about how AA is so much tougher than AAA, and then when someone suggests an all class tournament, you want to say that it wouldn't be fair to the AA kids. That make no sense.

you must be talking to someone else. ive never once in my life said that AA was better or tougher than AAA. never once. And, before you get offended.....remember you speak with such condescending statements of "scared of stiff competition" and "poor kids from little schools" and "noah adams couldn't stand a chance...not" Then, you are gonna throw out nonsense and statements that no one said. Here's the point....when you (which it seems you are) are a AAA school supporter then its easier for you to talk about stiffer competition being needed. But, when you have a school that struggles to put 8-9 kids on the whole team it doesn't quite seem that stiffer competition is the most desired thing. Those schools are the ones who are hoping for the once in a lifetime athlete or group of athletes. I'll be honest with you...I don't give 2 cents about revenue being made. But, when AAA has 29 total schools and AA and A have the other 80-90, then there is a problem. If that makes no sense to you, then we'll just agree to disagree.

So, aaacoach92 had a good idea for all of the AAA schools that makes some sense and then some others decide to hijack the topic for their own benefit. If there are 29 AAA schools, then make a 32 man bracket. Leave everyone else out of it, I don't care how smart California or Ohio are there are a lot of unenlightened States who have tournaments according to school size. However, if all of the other sports like football, basketball, baseball, track, and soccer go to one state tournament, then I will definitely support one grand tournament for wrestling.

aaacoach4 wrote:So, aaacoach92 had a good idea for all of the AAA schools that makes some sense and then some others decide to hijack the topic for their own benefit. If there are 29 AAA schools, then make a 32 man bracket. Leave everyone else out of it, I don't care how smart California or Ohio are there are a lot of unenlightened States who have tournaments according to school size. However, if all of the other sports like football, basketball, baseball, track, and soccer go to one state tournament, then I will definitely support one grand tournament for wrestling.

Ah, of course. No one else was meant to comment or offer an opinion.
Silly of everyone to "hijack" the topic for "their own benefit". I know that I personally took a large profit from the hijacking of this thread. I'm sure everyone else who commented with anything other than praise for his idea also benefited greatly.
Also, looking at how other states successfully run very competitive and prestigious tournaments is SO silly. I can't believe anyone would suggest doing what others have proven to work. We should definitely leave any sort of examples, which prove the validity of our ideas, OUT of the discussion

coach_williams wrote:Why is it that everytime someone has a "solution" for the AAA it involves lumping small AA/A schools in with big AAA schools? Why is it so hard for people to grasp the concept that the schools are divided to give the smaller schools a chance to compete? The division is not about individual wrestlers, it is about team competition.

So for all of you who want to handicap AA/A for the benefit of AAA, here is my solution. We dump all teams into one pool like you want, however, team scoring is modified. Any school with 1000 or more students starts team scoring at 0. Every team with less than 1000 students gets 15 bonus team points for every 100 students less than 1000. So a school with 570 students would begin team scoring at 60 points.

This would allow teams like Fayetteville, Buffalo and Richwood, who struggle to have more than 6 or 8 on their team to be able to compete for a team state championship with schools like South and Huntington who send more wrestlers to states than these small schools even have on their team.

I agree. Solving AAA's currently issues should not involve AA or A schools.

WV needs to divide into two divisions. Split the schools down the middle based on enrollment. Just because you are in AA in football, doesn't mean you have to be AA in wrestling. Most states, including Ohio work this way. For instance Steubenville, OH is division 4 in football and D2 in wrestling. There are 3 divisions for wrestling, but 6 or 7 in football. It is a numbers game. In Ohio there are more teams represented at each district than at our state tournament. I am pretty sure in arch Division there are about 240 school. If we did it that way the big school division would be very competitive, as would small school. This would be a simple solution and easy to institute without many changes in overall structure.

If you live in wv, then there is no such thing as small or big schools. Everything here is small, especially with several of today's competing schools in AA originating as AAA schools at one point. I have no problem with one big tournament. If anybody doesn't like that, then tell it to somebody in california

highleghillary wrote:If you live in wv, then there is no such thing as small or big schools. Everything here is small, especially with several of today's competing schools in AA originating as AAA schools at one point. I have no problem with one big tournament. If anybody doesn't like that, then tell it to somebody in california

if thats what California does, then they are doing it wrong unless wrestling in California is what HS swimming is here in WV.

I guess we could try this...
(smile)

http://wvmat.com/april/april10.htm

Yay! Everyone gets a trophy!

Unite the state tournament. It is divided, one half aa the other aaa, both on their own planets, not caring about the other. Place the top 8. 3 team trophys. I don't care what swimming or basketball does. It makes sense.

Gator wrote:Yay! Everyone gets a trophy!



leglampaward.gif

gator, you mind if I take that off your hands? Thats a good looking lamp!

highleghillary wrote:

Gator wrote:Yay! Everyone gets a trophy!



leglampaward.gif

gator, you mind if I take that off your hands? Thats a good looking lamp!

My wife broke it!

highleghillary wrote:If you live in wv, then there is no such thing as small or big schools. Everything here is small, especially with several of today's competing schools in AA originating as AAA schools at one point. I have no problem with one big tournament. If anybody doesn't like that, then tell it to somebody in california

There is a considerable difference between our bigger and smaller schools. Do me a favor and take the 5 minutes it takes to walk around the entire facility at Magnolia High School and then go see how much school you can see at Parkersburg South in 5 minutes. That aside, student population is what is relevant, not community attitude (big town vs small town). It is harder for small schools with 5 or 7 wrestlers to compete against schools with 25 or 30 wrestlers. The larger schools will always be the "state champion school" and the small school never will, resulting in the smaller school struggling to build and keep a wrestling program because students don't want to wrestle for the team that always comes in 44th at states.

And nobody cares how California does it. There are 10 school districts in Cali that have more students than the city of Charleston, WV has residents. We can not do it the way they do it because our largest school district (Kanawha county) wouldn't even be in the top 25 in California.

coach_williams wrote:

highleghillary wrote:If you live in wv, then there is no such thing as small or big schools. Everything here is small, especially with several of today's competing schools in AA originating as AAA schools at one point. I have no problem with one big tournament. If anybody doesn't like that, then tell it to somebody in california

There is a considerable difference between our bigger and smaller schools. Do me a favor and take the 5 minutes it takes to walk around the entire facility at Magnolia High School and then go see how much school you can see at Parkersburg South in 5 minutes. That aside, student population is what is relevant, not community attitude (big town vs small town). It is harder for small schools with 5 or 7 wrestlers to compete against schools with 25 or 30 wrestlers. The larger schools will always be the "state champion school" and the small school never will, resulting in the smaller school struggling to build and keep a wrestling program because students don't want to wrestle for the team that always comes in 44th at states.

And nobody cares how California does it. There are 10 school districts in Cali that have more students than the city of Charleston, WV has residents. We can not do it the way they do it because our largest school district (Kanawha county) wouldn't even be in the top 25 in California.

The D man has some valid points

coach_williams wrote:

highleghillary wrote:If you live in wv, then there is no such thing as small or big schools. Everything here is small, especially with several of today's competing schools in AA originating as AAA schools at one point. I have no problem with one big tournament. If anybody doesn't like that, then tell it to somebody in california

There is a considerable difference between our bigger and smaller schools. Do me a favor and take the 5 minutes it takes to walk around the entire facility at Magnolia High School and then go see how much school you can see at Parkersburg South in 5 minutes. That aside, student population is what is relevant, not community attitude (big town vs small town). It is harder for small schools with 5 or 7 wrestlers to compete against schools with 25 or 30 wrestlers. The larger schools will always be the "state champion school" and the small school never will, resulting in the smaller school struggling to build and keep a wrestling program because students don't want to wrestle for the team that always comes in 44th at states.

And nobody cares how California does it. There are 10 school districts in Cali that have more students than the city of Charleston, WV has residents. We can not do it the way they do it because our largest school district (Kanawha county) wouldn't even be in the top 25 in California.

Actually, there really is no difference compared to schools in other states in the country. This is why we have seen former AAA schools transition to AA vice versa. especially a specific hs who was AA ten years ago then switched to AAA, then again switched to AA. And to say we dont care about California? That is extremely irresponsible given California is normally a top ten state in the country. This is the point of this conversation right? To discuss a way to make the state tournament more desirable and competitive by avoiding forefeits? Look at the current state of west virginia, our economy is down the drain, there are less younger people as well as population as a whole here, and there really isnt anything attractive. This current state correlates to everything we do, such as recreational activity in wrestling. This coaligns with what we are currently seeing in wrestling. look..... you would do 4 sections (combine the current AA and AAA regions)make it a two day tournament 16 man bracket, so WVSSAC doesnt miss out on the possible revenue they'd recieve from the orginal structure. Top 8 make it to state. you do a 32 man bracket and place top 8. WVSSAC doesnt lose any revenue and this consolidates the sport into making this back into a more competitive and entertaining atmosphere.